Thursday, March 23, 2017

September 23, 1941: Very Worthy Young Man

Letter from W.W. Peters, new President of McPherson

Transcription:

Excerpt     McPherson College
            Mcpherson, Kansas
            September 23, 1941
       (received September 26, 1941)

Mrs. Kathleen Hanstein

The folks here speak very highly of Tom Doeppner and enjoyed his presence on the campus very much. He made a real contribution to the life of McPherson College and seems to have been very appreciative of what he received of McPherson. He is considered a very worthy young man.

W.W. Peters,
President.

My guess on this document is that in Opa's application for an extension of stay in the US, he had to submit letters of recommendation and character references. This letter from the new President of McPherson college, who didn't know Opa, but who seemed to have heard good things, is a big positive for Opa's file. 

I like that phrase: "very worthy young man." I agree.

September 23, 1941: Extension Request

Letter from Byron H. Uhl of Department of Justice, Immigration and Naturalization Service

Transcription:

U.S. Department of Justice
Immigration and Naturalization Service
Ellis Island, New York Harbor, N.Y.
September 23, 1941

In replying please refer to this FILE NUMBER 99503/254

Mr. Thomas Walter Doeppner
R.F.D. #1
McPherson, Kansas

Dear Sir:

This will acknowledge the receipt of your application for extension of temporary admission in the United States, which is being forwarded to the Department of Justice today.

When a reply is received, you will be advised.

Very truly yours

Byron H. Uhl
District Director
New York District

Opa has applied for his extension, a regular task he must do to keep his status in the US legal. His hopes of transferring his status from temporary to permanent are fading, but at least the INS seems to have gotten on the same page. Opa should now be able to follow a routine of regularly submitting his application for an extension, and as long as he is enrolled in school, he should be OK. But of course nothing is permanent, so there is the slight held breath until he receives a response affirming his stay.


Tuesday, March 21, 2017

September 23, 1941: To Be Without You

Letter from Ella to Opa

Transcription:

Thomas Döppner
1119 Kearney
Manhattan, Kansas  USA
Berlin-Charlottenburg
Droysenstr.14
Sept. 23rd, 41
My beloved boy
Now the holidays
(I believe she means the summer holidays) have passed again, and I had to be without both of you. I hope they were the last ones. Everything is so hard for me, and I beg of you, not to leave anything undone, so I can come to you, and soon!

I received your letter of August 18th. Hunschen, do you have so little money, that in such a case you could not stay in a decent hotel? I believe you are saving in the wrong areas. Your description was quite humorous, but your situation was more than unpleasant.  My poor boy!

I am waiting anxiously for news about your housing in Manhattan. Your letter should actually be there already. Do you hear from Ellenruth? Martha is very worried about her.  It is not understandable that she did not visit you. Martha is telling herself all sorts of possibilities, that this man totally controls her, does not mail her letters, does not give her the letters from home, locks her in: a real wild west story. Even if I don't see it that black
(German expression for trouble), I am also very worried about her, because her last letter was from July. Please Hunschen, write to her and if you also don't get an answer, try to find out what is going on there.

Her address is:

Mrs. L. Silva
1861 North Kingsley Drive
Los Angeles California. USA
By the way, do you know that Hilde Sonntag lives in Kansas? Maybe you would like to visit her:

Hilde Rossbach
Kansas City, Mo.
3627 Pasa
Thanks a lot for the pictures. I wrote to you that Papa had an enlargement made of the picture of Patti and Maurice and sent it to me as a gift. I now asked him to have one of your pictures enlarged as well. I sent him 4 to choose from, the counterpart to Lula (not sure about this name), two horses and a donkey, you and Shelley's at the front door I think.  Since I  assume that Papa will be reluctant to send them back to me, I ask you to send them to me again. Tilli also wants the donkey picture. Is it possible to send me several copies, all my friends would love to have a picture of you.  
Do you still see your friends (male and female) from McPherson at times, or is the distance to far? I do wish that you and Esther will remain good friends. You know yourself that you are too young for a binding relationship. So many more people will come into your life, so you really can wait with that for a while. Write more to me about Terry, I am not sure where to place her. Is she the daughter of your biology professor at your college, or am I mixed up about that? 

Hunschen remember, we will write to each other every week! Loewe’s received your letter, they were happy to hear from you and will write to you soon. Write to me in detail about your work, living conditions, life and especially about your thinking and feeling.
I kiss my beloved child and Erna
Your Mama

(little note on top of page)
What does Pattilein write?
Have you heard from Herting and Erna?
How are they doing?

Ella marks her time by seasons of absence. Another summer holiday has gone by without a visit from her children. In an ordinary life, she'd have them home for the summer, on their break from college. They'd be visiting friends and getting into trouble with her for staying out late or some other natural offense. Instead, she waits each day in hopes that she'll receive mail from them.  She is miles away and yet even the miles seem to be the easiest part about their distance. She herself is in a cage of fear and political boundaries, desperate to get to one of her children, but subconsciously aware that she is stuck and there isn't much anyone can do. So she fixates on their well-being, and holds on to any and all images she receives as proof.
Opa is in Manhattan, Kansas now. Ella hasn't wasted any time finding new people for him to write or visit. She is concerned that Opa's cousin Ellenruth didn't visit on her way from New York to L.A.. Ella's sister, Martha (Ellenruth's mother) is inventing stories fit for a "wild west" as Ella puts it. She is sure that Ellenruth is in grave danger. Ella is more concerned that Ellenruth is likely making poor choices. Either way, it is now Opa's job to check in on his cousin and put his mother and aunt's fears to rest. When I visited with Ruth (Ellenruth's daughter) - she told me about how much Martha and Erich had hated Alfred. Alfred was Ruth's father, and they basically blamed him for everything. 
Ella checks in on whether Opa still sees friends from McPherson (which he does because many of them have gone on to Kansas State). She checks on his heart after some information about girls not being girlfriends anymore. Then she reminds him he is too young to settle. Ha. But Patti is married. I think Ella is the kind of mother that has an idea about what is good and right, but will love and accept her children through any decision they make. Speaking of Patti, no one has heard from her in a while. I wonder what's going on with her?
Ella starts her letter the usual way- wishing and hoping to be near her children and asking him to do anything he can to make that happen. She signs off her usual way, asking for more letters, giving him love, and reminding him that whether he likes it or not, someone is loving him and thinking about him every second of every day. Her greatest sorrow is to be without him.

Spotlight: Stefan George

Hello friends, in Opa's recent letter to Gisela, he is missing his German poets. He mentions that the only one he has to read in the US is Stefan George, but he's "never especially liked him before, found his poems too sentimental and contrived...but I did find a couple of his poems that did a lot for me." He attached one of those poems for Gisela. We don't know which it was, but the mention of George and Rilke did make me think about this side of Opa that I get to see here, and didn't see as much as a child. Grandmother and Opa always enjoyed and appreciated the arts, especially musicals and Opera, but I didn't know Opa had a taste for poetry.

German poetry is a thing. Transcendentalism - that's a German thing. I didn't realize this until the tone of Opa's obvious love of German poetry over most others (and especially modern American). I realized he was missing German poetry like a Russian might miss Russian ballet. It's one of the things their culture does well. 

So Stefan George. Funnily, Opa didn't really like him all that much and I think his description is fabulous because if you google Stefan George, most people who critique him have the very same critique. He was very flowery and over-the-top with his poetry. Stefan George is a controversial poet, but it depends on the article you read. So I'm going to let you read a couple: this one sort of paints George as the unwitting cultural pandora's box for the Nazi's obsession with "German Race and Culture is Better than Everything." The article discusses whether George was completely unwitting or complicit in the views and drive of the Nazis. 

The Wikipedia article (and editors) give George the benefit of the doubt, assuming George purposely distanced himself from the Nazis when they tried to capitalize on his German purity and poetry. Even some close friends of his were involved in an assassination plot against Hitler and quoted one of his poems as they planned it. 

Either way, pretty much every one seems to agree that Stefan George was a VERY strange dude. He LOVED Germany (after having a sort of affair with France). His flowery style was sort of an attempt to reclaim the old-school German. He had a cult-like following and he was really OK with that. 

I can see why Opa didn't like him- I think he was too much of a cult-personality and he wasn't serious enough. But either way I hope you read the articles and learn a little bit more about your German poets! And maybe you like the crazy poets and find a new favorite in George. 

Monday, March 20, 2017

September 21 & 23, 1941: Pacifist Opa

Diary entry from Herb Michael, Opa's roommate at Kansas State University

Article in Kansas State Collegian (Kansas State Newspaper)

Transcription:

Sunday, September 21, 1941
264th Day - 101 Days to Follow

Tom and I talked nearly all morning. He has been telling me a great deal about his life in Germany, and it is too great a temptation to take the time even tho other things are urgent.

The program committee met at 4:00. It took until 6:00 to get our ideas worked out. Meeting again with Lorraine, relations were casual and aloof.

Tom has been working with plans for a unit of the Fellowship of Reconciliation here. I had a date with Shirley Spohn for League and to our first F.O.R. meeting. There were 8 of us in all. Things proceeded very well.
*******************************************
(Article in Kansas State Collegiate Newspaper)

Pacifists Organize On K-State Campus

A newly organized unit of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, an international and interdenominational organization of pacifists, will have its first open meeting next Tuesday at 8:45pm in Wesley hall, 1531 Fairview. All who are interested in peace work are invited.

Phil Myers, as chairman, will have charge of the meeting. The program will be a presentation by the Rev. C.T. Brewster and Miss Shirley Spohn of the organization, history, and the aims of the F.O.R. and also a description of the Quaker work camps.

Alrighty, let's start with the diary entry. I love that Herb is listening with rapt attention to Opa's stories of Germany. This reminds me (and my readers) that Opa has not forgotten his home. It is still a part of his daily thoughts, his conversation, his passion. He does not have shame about Germany- or at least not in the way that he has stopped talking about it. When I was growing up, Germany was not a topic of conversation, at least not in the way of reminiscing about his childhood. Those stories were replaced by warnings to pay attention to the news, to educate myself, to remember that bad things can happen in the strangest places. But even that he said after being asked questions. Rarely did Opa willing offer up thoughts on Germany without prompting. Honestly, the only thing I remember him saying about Germany was that calling someone a Nazi is the worst thing you could possibly say to someone, and that he read may books trying to figure out how Germany devolved into a country that orchestrated the holocaust. 

Now to change the topic completely- is Herb dating Lorraine? Or trying to? Or did he go on a date with Shirley? Maybe both. Way to go Herb. 

He talks about Opa starting (with friends) the Fellowship of Reconciliation. He had this club in McPherson, and I don't think I realized until this newspaper article that the club was explicitly a pacifist organization.

The news article brings up familiar names: Phil Myers and Shirley Spohn (who was mentioned by Herb)- these folks are all from McPherson. It's good to know that Opa isn't completely on his own without familiar faces in this new university. Looks like a lot of folks went on from McPherson to Kansas State to further their studies. 

So back to the Fellowship of Reconciliation. It's a pacifist organization with goals of "peace work." The last part of the article mentions the Quaker work camps. I know about these camps, and I think that they served as alternatives for Conscientious Objectors who did not want to fight in the war. So with the war looming large, people may have been interested in learning about options in case they were called to service. 

Again- I am so dumbfounded by all this. Opa was in the Army for 29 years! I just... what shifted? At 21, he was actively forming groups for pacifists, talking to the government about being a conscientious objector (which would nearly eliminate his chances of citizenship), and exploring Quaker work camps as possible alternatives to joining the military. He's not just a casual pacifist, he's organized!

I am looking forward to the letter that explains all this. It's going to exist. Right?

September 17 & 18, 1941: Tea and Crackers with Opa


Diary Pages from Opa's roommate Herb Michael at Kansas State University

Transcription:

Wednesday, September 17, 1941
260th Day - 105 Days to Follow

After choir practice (Lorraine was not there) Tom and I read over our electrodynamics, and then he read his German poetry and we talked.

Instead of really studying, after that, we had tea and crackers, invited Lee to imbibe with us, and consequently it is very late, with not much done.

Thursday, September 18, 1941
261st Day - 104 Days to Follow
The Cosmopolitan Club had an outdoor supper tonight, and Tom and I went. The club is open to all foreign stud cents in school, and to an equal number of natives.

Of the non-US students there were far more Hawaiians than anything else Abdul Khalaf, from Palestine, was there. Doris Kim was supposed to have gone to another school, but she was at the supper this evening.

We had chicken, baked beans, salad, and jello. I talked to a girl from New York, an Italian, very interesting.

A day in the life with Opa. This diary gives us so much insight to the regular every day of Opa's college experience. He was such a joiner, in the most positive way. If there was an event, an experience, a joining of minds- he was there. I love that the roommates read their homework and then blew the rest of the evening on such a scandalous time with German poetry, tea and crackers, and talking. Ha! 

Here's the thing- for the most part - this is exactly how I wasted time in college. Replace German poetry with other philosophical or religious books, and I spent many hours talking and drinking tea and coffee with friends. How similar our experience was in some of the mundane ways. Something I wish I had taken advantage of when I was in college is the amazing cultural diversity that I was surrounded with. This cosmopolitan club sounds awesome. It's a chance for Herb from Kansas to get together with an Italian from New York and a man from Palestine. I *know* that those opportunities for me to intersect with folks from the around the world were available to me- I just did not take advantage of them or seek them out. I wish I had had an Opa- like roommate to take me out of my comfort zone. I had my own set of friends who took me outside my comfort zone in other ways, but I wish I had let myself be stretched even further. 

I remember distinctly the day when I was working at a hotel in my college town and a young woman checked into our hotel. She was kind and polite, and her eyes were so remarkably soulful that I found myself asking her questions and taking the conversation past the usual surface chat that I engaged in with hotel guests. I had to know the story behind her eyes. She was from Palestine, and had a brochure in her hand about the daily bulldozing that was happening to the homes of people she loved. Before talking to her, I had no idea that there was tension at the Israel/Palestine border and that houses were being bulldozed. I know that the problem is complicated, but I had never heard the Palestinian side of the story. That was over 15 years ago and was a 20 minute conversation. I never saw her again- but I remember her, and I remember her story. That's the kind of impact that meeting people from someplace else can have. 

Even in seminary I was surrounded by people from all over the world and my closest friends were southerners. I'm trying to make a real effort here in the DC suburbs to take advantage of the diversity around me. I think I need to try harder. I wonder if there is a cosmopolitan club I can join? 

Thursday, March 16, 2017

August 31, 1941: We Were Born Into This




Letter from Opa to Gisela

Translation:
McPherson, August 31, 1941
Dear Gis,
Now it’s Sunday once again, my last Sunday in McPherson. It’s warm here, the air is full of joyful bird songs, even the people seem happy and untroubled, but a hint of a hard future lies in the air, which only those who can and who want to look the facts in the eye are capable of recognizing. It’s hard to see this happiness and know at the same time how many tears are falling elsewhere and how many are very soon going to have to be shed here, too.  I think I can understand how hard it must be for you to sustain your life as much as you do in the midst of so much suffering and struggle. I admire you for your strength in doing so, and I know you will again remain victorious when it comes to life. We were born into a generation that demands a lot from us, but I believe that we can manage it. Every person has to manage it in his or her own way, but we’ll do it together and supporting each other, right?
Did you really think that Anni’s letter had given me a changed picture of you? No, Gis, our relationship is solid, and no one and nothing, not even Anni, could destroy something so beautiful and valuable. I think I understood Anni’s letter as it was intended; I was happy to get it and am really happy to be in touch with her, but there are no more of the feelings that held sway over me two, three years ago. It’s also preferable for Anni that that’s the case; I now feel that I can write to her as a good friend, but that my life will take another course, independent of that. It’s surely only natural that time has had this influence on me. We all, in our early youth, let a special and early experience seem big and unique, while then later, events that seemed small to us come into the foreground, and we realize the ones we have held onto forever have taken a back (if perhaps still necessary) place. Nevertheless, even I believe in the eternal value you write of. It’s like the links of a chain. We move along the chain, link by link; we see and value only the link that is right in front of us, and the upcoming ones; but if only one of the previous links were to break, the chain would be broken.
Thank you very much for the poem by Rilke. I wasn’t familiar with it; which one of his books is it in? It sounds a little like the Book of Hours. I can well understand why this “Fall” poem might help you; it’s also often the case for me that a beautiful poem or a concert can lift me up out of moods and temptations. Recently I’ve mostly been concentrating on modern American poets, but they don’t suit me quite as much. The only German poet whose poems I have here is Stefan George. I never especially liked him before, found his poems too sentimental and contrived; even now there are many other poets I far prefer to him, but I did find a couple of his poems that did a lot for me.  I’m including one for you, which, like most of his poems, doesn’t have a name and doesn’t need one. –Do you read a lot these days, or do you not have enough time? I read somewhat more this summer than before, though not nearly as much as I had planned, since I simply didn’t have the time and am usually so exhausted in the evenings that the spirit just can’t handle one more thing. In winter, naturally, I have no time at all for literature, since I have to devote all of my reading to the subject of engineering.
From the end of July up until my departure I had a very good position as a mathematician at a sub-branch of the American Department of Agriculture. From aerial shots of the land we had to calculate the size of various fields using all sorts of geometric instruments. It’s very interesting work, and finally something in my field. We work ten hours a day and get a very steady income. I’ve now earned enough money to go to Manhattan for at least one semester, then I’ll look for work again in order to be able to go for both semesters the next year. I only need four full or six abridged semesters to finish my studies, so it won’t be too much longer now.
Thank you very much for your report of the people from the [Quaker youth] group. It’s great that they are apparently still doing really well. Lotsch really did get the position she dreamed of, then. Has her illness gotten any better at all? So Guenther has a girlfriend once again. Is he still as childish as he was? But the German youth of today sure can’t be childish at all anymore; they’ve experienced too much to stay children. If you hear anything again from Werner, let me know how he’s doing. I admire him the most of all the boys in the group; he’s really, as they say here, “an all around good fellow.”
It’s good that you’ve finally found a nice friend and aren’t quite so alone anymore. Does she also work at the hospital? When I see the nurses at a hospital here, I always think of you and imagine that you must work with similarly silly and uninteresting girls. Then I often also try to imagine you in a nurse’s uniform and cap, and that works very well, I imagine that they look very good on you.
I’ve found a very good friend here, really the best I’ve ever had. I don’t know if I wrote to you about him already. He studied history and literature at McPherson College, took his exams here a year ago; now he teaches at a high school. He’s about 25 years old, short and unassuming in his appearance, somewhat severe and strict in his ways and how he comes across, but one of the smartest guys I know. What’s more, and this is what caught my attention most of all, he writes outstanding poetry; so good that I believe there’s a great future in it for him. If you’re interested, I can send you a couple of his poems, you’ll definitely enjoy reading them. This summer we got together at least once a week and read poetry or spent a wonderful evening in conversation. It’s worth a lot to have that kind of friend.
This Sunday evening it’s off to Manhattan. I’ve rented a little basement room there with a friend. We have a small stove there on which we can cook for ourselves; it’s cheaper and won’t take up too much time. We’re both bad cooks, but since no one besides us will have to eat our burnt food, we won’t develop too bad of a reputation. This friend is a very interesting guy. He was a sailor for several years and as such got around the whole world and earned money to now study electrical engineering. He’s not the most intelligent, but has a lot of willpower and is a really good guy. I admire people who have lived and endured life with its dangers and temptations far more than those who are good out of tradition, or because they don’t know any other way. –I have a really good job in Manhattan during the school year, it’s working in the library again. I’m sure almost two years’ experience in library work helped me get the job. I’ll have to work there for four hours every day, so I won’t have too much time left over to think stupid thoughts. I’ll also be sure to join several student associations, so I’ll surely have enough to do. I have found again and again that a person accomplishes more in each individual thing when they always have something to do. Too much free time works even against the things that a person could actually do better with free time. That’s a psychological issue to be sure, but it’s true.
That was a long letter, but there’s just so much to say. Let’s hope that this way at least remains open to us for a while; you have no idea how much I look forward to your lines every time, and how much joy it gives me to answer them.
Heartfelt greetings,
Tom
My new address is
c/o Mr. E Honsing, 1119 Kearney, Manhatten, Kansas

"We were born into a generation that demands a lot from us." This is perhaps the understatement of Opa's life. He is pretty poetic in his letter to his friend Gisela, with whom he has a close friendship. He focuses on their platonic relationship, but seems to hint at flirtation whenever he gets a chance. (Like commenting on how nice she must look in a nurse's uniform.)

Opa's opening paragraph hints at the inevitability of the US' involvement in the raging war. He feels a sense of superiority? prescience? as he glances around at what he considers to be his somewhat ignorant comrades at school. Little do they know, he thinks, that war is coming. I think they might know, they just might not know to what degree it will affect them. But can anyone know the future? The war is an old story for Opa, but he's a little condescending to his American friends. I can't fault him for it, he is right in a way, very soon the entire nation will be invested in this world war in ways they would not imagine. I think Opa honestly feels a little bit of what they call "survivor's guilt" by living in the relative safety of middle America while his friends are literally in the crossfires of conflict. 

Opa's optimism for the demands that the world has put on his generation is that they will get through it together. I love this.

Opa talks about Anni. It sounds like Anni might have said something nasty about her sister Gisela or at least not helpful. That sounds about right. And smartly, Opa doesn't let Anni affect his friendship with Gisela. He acknowledges that he's glad to be back in touch with Anni, but that he no longer feels the same way about Anni (he was in love with her), and that passing time has made that First Love feel less important. I love his chain link image- that we go along in life feeling that the link in front of us is most important, and then as we pass over them they fade, but to break it is to break the chain. It's a nice way to capture that no experience is wasted, but that it becomes less pressing. I wonder if he came up with that himself.

Then Opa talks about poetry, and I think he's putting on a little bit of a show for Gisela, but I don't doubt he loves poetry. Here is the Rilke poem, Fall (a translation):
 
THE LEAVES are falling, falling as from far,
As if far gardens in the skies were dying;
They fall, and ever seem to be denying.
 
And in the night the earth, a heavy ball,
Into a starless solitude must fall.        5
 
We all are falling. My own hand no less
Than all things else; behold, it is in all.
Yet there is One who, utter gentleness,
Holds all this falling in His hands to bless.

It's a beautiful poem, with the last stanza offering hope to us in the Falling. Opa talks about his new best friend, a person that we think is Winton Sheffield. Winton is older, a bit wiser, and a gifted poet it seems. It makes me happy to think that Opa has finally found a person that he can be real with and share his thoughts with. 

Opa hears from Gisela the scoop on everyone from the group. Lotsch is the girl they called Lotte (short for Charlotte) who had some form of disability, perhaps a weakness in the limbs of some sort. In most pictures, she has crutches or is being carted around on their hikes in a wheelbarrow. I love that they had someone among their group who was not physically as robust as they were, and they managed to find a way for her to be integrated into their activities. 

I emailed Bern (another Quaker group alumni) to ask him about what happened to Werner and other folks in the group. I don't know Guenther, but Bern knew him: "Guenther Gaulke who, after the war, married a Bremen girl and became a Bremen policeman." Bern visited him a few times after the war.

Werner's is a sad story. This is the boy that Opa has high respect for, he was the same age, maybe a year older. You might recall me saying the line that "Gisela loved Tom, Tom loved Anni, Anni loved Werner, who fell in the war." I asked Bern if this was the same Werner. It is. Here is what he wrote about him:

Werner Saxe (Sachse?) who fell on the eastern front... I did Ask Anni about detals of his death but other than that he fell with a Straf Batallion, a punishment military unit, she either didn't know or didn't want to tell me. ...(we have a copy of) his father's last letter before his execution in Ploetzensee, Berlin... As I recall it, I think Anni told me that Werner did not want to marry while the war was on. Perhaps he was aware even then that he would not survive.  She also told me that he loved his violin. 
So Anni's love died, unmarked, on the Eastern front in a punishment military unit. I'm assuming (but don't have a paper trail to confirm) that his placement in this unit was a result of his being half-Jewish, which enabled him to be sort of what we might called cannon fodder- front line folks that Germany didn't mind sacrificing. This was the very type of assignment that Opa was escaping when he left Germany. This was the death that very possibly awaited him if he remained in his home country.

But Opa doesn't know all of this, as it all hasn't happened yet. But I doubt we'll hear about Werner in the letters much again. Opa's focus then switches to Gisela in a nurse's uniform. Because, she's his friend. Right? What a flirt. 

He talks about his new best friend, his move to University of Kansas, his old job doing cool engineering things (first I've heard of this!), his job at the library, etc. He catches Gisela up on all the details of his life. His letters must give her a joint feeling of gladness that normalcy exists somewhere, and sadness that her life has been sort of usurped by the war at hand. She continues with everyday living, but everything is shaped by the war.

So Opa continues to write, to speak hope, to work hard, to keep himself busy, "so I won’t have too much time left over to think stupid thoughts." 

No one can rest too long, because they were born into a generation that demands a lot.